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Lets talk about SB

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From: Nachtmahr

This Post:
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262742.95 in reply to 262742.92
Date: 11/12/2014 4:35:10 PM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72437243
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
I don't know for sure. ID makes it harder to find a shooting spot inside the paint (and maybe close around it). But the main problem is: how exactly works a steal attempt inside the paint? Only OD, even for bigs? A combination of OD and ID and OD is more important? Or is ID more important? I would go with OD>>ID. The reason is that I have two bigs with similar ID and SB. One of them has OD 1 and the other one a lot more. And the one with more OD gets a lot of more steals. So even if ID is necessary, it has a really small influence.

ID has no direct influence on shooting fouls. It decreases the possible fg% and when the opponent goes for the shot SB kicks in and the shooting foul calculation starts.

This Post:
00
262742.96 in reply to 262742.94
Date: 11/12/2014 4:50:50 PM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72437243
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
The numbers are an average of my whole BB time. The increase to 290 blks/season was with a 3-2 zone.

About your second question: how can SB 10 stop IS16? It makes no difference if it was before or after the SB change. Your SB will have only a little effect. About the effectiveness. My two guys who played at PF and C had strong numbers. 35% SB success and they kept their opponents to 5%-25% fg. So around 40% - 50% of all their defended shots were a miss without a block. This shows me that SB is very important even if you don't see any blocks in the boxscore. If you want to know more mail me. I can show you a lot of data ;-)

This Post:
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262742.97 in reply to 262742.90
Date: 11/12/2014 4:53:39 PM
Infested Warriors
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
775775
2) offense foul
High driving with low handling. Also some players are more aggressive than others and have 1-2 offense fouls per game.


This is interesting. Can you go deeper in this one?.
I've been here (in the dark) for a while (maybe since S7-9 in globa forums) and I think I've missed when BB stated that. Or it's based on your research?

This Post:
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262742.98 in reply to 262742.91
Date: 11/12/2014 7:27:18 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
No this is not the guy. Maybe he wasn't yours, but he definitely had on average 12 fouls/48. In any case yes, I doubt it's anything more than a coincidence.

This Post:
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262742.99 in reply to 262742.95
Date: 11/12/2014 7:35:06 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
If both you and Wolph are correct, then for man defense SB is key, but in keeping the opponents away from the paint and in lowering the opponent open inside shots FG% ID (or team ID) is king. If that's the case, the more flow the opponent has, the more OD and ID are important compared to SB?

From: minde

This Post:
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262742.101 in reply to 262742.100
Date: 11/13/2014 3:35:14 AM
No Good News
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
398398
Second Team:
Backyard Brawlers
So, in this thread the ID is the skill as the SB is in the other ones.. like least important.. So what if we tank on ID instead of IS? I mean, you usually say lets tank on IS and save money, so maybe lets save less and tank on ID? And defend 1-1 to minimise the open shots, as the OD and SB skills are for personal defence.. With such skillset we could play inside and outside tactics without worrying about GDP.. but.. 1-1 wouldn't let to increase the open shots for opponent, would it? If it would, he could hit like 90% of them with low team ID rating..
And another problem would be the training, as the ID is secondary skill for IS, RB and SB..

This Post:
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262742.103 in reply to 262742.100
Date: 11/13/2014 6:47:44 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
Ok we seem to be in agreement.

I was mostly referring more to the point that unguarded shots are 'defended' by team ratings (Trainerman's theory). ID rating is mostly (if not entirely) generated by ID, so if that theory is correct the more unguarded shots you face, the better it would be to have ID over SB (marginal value and marginal cost being equal, which they are not, but that's another discussion).

This Post:
22
262742.104 in reply to 262742.103
Date: 11/13/2014 7:25:33 AM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72437243
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
@Lemonshine:
I was mostly referring more to the point that unguarded shots are 'defended' by team ratings (Trainerman's theory). ID rating is mostly (if not entirely) generated by ID, so if that theory is correct the more unguarded shots you face, the better it would be to have ID over SB (marginal value and marginal cost being equal, which they are not, but that's another discussion).

OD and ID prevent open shots (that's what Trainerman calls team pressure or sth like that). That something I posted the first time four or five seasons ago. It's the defense against the players. With OD and ID you try to minimize the possible FG% for your opponent. During this time, OD and ID are more important than SB. That's what most of the teams play. But as soon as your opponent decides to shoot, you need SB. So you have actually three ways here:
1) go with ID>SB: you try to defend the player and don't give him a good shooting spot, the block isn't your aim
2) go with ID=SB: The kind of players I prefer and also have.
3) go with SB>ID: you leave your opponent more room to shoot and your main target is to block his shot. I think that's a dangerous option, because you could end up with given more open shots to your opponent because of the lack of ID

ID rating is mostly (if not entirely) generated by ID

The first part is right ;) ID rating is mostly generated from ID, but you need SB too. But not as much as ID.
From Charles:
Blocking does contribute to inside defense, but the much stronger effect is simply that some shots are blocked rather than becoming either made or missed.



From your other post:
If that's the case, the more flow the opponent has, the more OD and ID are important compared to SB?

YES! We have a winner. But now look at it from the other side. What do you need for a high flow? Passing. Why do you need it? To find open shots. And why don't we have a lot of open shots? Because OD and ID are far higher than PA. And because of this dilemma the FG%, especially for outside teams, is too low. The guards have to outplay OD 15+ players almost in every team from division 3 and higher.

@minde:
So, in this thread the ID is the skill as the SB is in the other ones.. [] like least important..

I don't think so. Like I wrote some line above, for me ID is as much important as SB. But you have to balance it. And it's also important to to look at your opponents.
During the traineing of my two guys something happend with them. I showed it to Manon, but I can't remember if he had the same "problem". Both my trainees had low foul numbers. I trained SB and ID and than the first one started fouling more and more. For around a half season. Than his fouls went down again. Next season the same thing happend to the other trainee. And it bothered me that I couldn't find out why. Until I compaired their skills and their opponents. When they reached ID 12+SB 12, they started to defend more shots. There ID was good enough to prefent open shots, but they weren't strong enough to minimize the possible FG%. And with their SB they tried to stop the shot and fouled. But both stopped with this when they reached ID 14 + SB 14. They still defendend the higher amount of shots, but they could block more of them and didn't foul. And their oppoents were most of the time IS 14-16 bigs.
Balance is everything.

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