BuzzerBeater Forums

MJ had a lot of learning to do

Sure, he had a lot of learning to do but in his first season:

Win Shares
1. Larry Bird*-BOS 15.7
2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 14.0

Player Efficiency Rating
1. Larry Bird*-BOS 26.5
2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 25.8

From the time he joined the bulls, even up to the year prior to them winning the championship, look at the 2nd/3rd highest PER on his team:

84-85:
Player PER
Michael Jordan 25.8
Orlando Woolridge 19.5
Quintin Dailey 15.2

85-86 (injured, played only 18 games)
Player PER
Michael Jordan 27.5
Orlando Woolridge 19.6
Quintin Dailey 18.1

86-87
Player PER
Michael Jordan 29.8
Sedale Threatt 16.2
Charles Oakley 14.2

87-88
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.7
Sam Vincent 16.1
Charles Oakley 15.4

88-89
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.1
Craig Hodges 14.9
Scottie Pippen 14.9

89-90
Player PER
Michael Jordan 31.2
Horace Grant 16.6
Scottie Pippen 16.3

From the time he joined the bulls, even up to the year prior to them winning the championship, look at the 2nd/3rd highest PER on his team:

Lets run these for lebron (yeah, it's beating a dead horse, at this moment in time, to say LBJ isn't as good as MJ):

03-04
Player PER (LBJ was 19 his first year, compared to MJ who was 21)
Carlos Boozer 20.8
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 20.2
LeBron James 18.3

04-05
Player PER
LeBron James 25.7
Drew Gooden 19.7
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 19.5

05-06
Player PER
LeBron James 28.1
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 21.9
Drew Gooden 17.6

06-07
Player PER
LeBron James 24.5
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18
Drew Gooden 16.5

07-08
Player PER
LeBron James 29.1
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18.7
Joe Smith 14.9

08-09
Player PER
LeBron James 31.7
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 18
Mo Williams 17.2

I wonder if LBJ would have been more successful getting the team he had his first 2 years later in his team with cleveland. surprised how bad his supporting cast was in 07-08, almost as bad as MJ's in 08-09.

So if teammates matter now...what's wrong with Lebron seeking out good ones to help him win a championship?

Can't compare them until James' career is over however I definitely think that THE KING will surpass MJ.
Let's talk...

- LeBron had no NCAA experience... Jordan had spent 3 years with -in my opinion- the best college in the US. That's definitely a bonus fo James...

- While a rookie, James made an instant impact in the Cavs, improving them by 18 wins. Jordan also improved Bulls but by only 10 wins... Second bonus for James

- To be fair, Jordan selected to start the Eastern Conference Allstar team while a rookie, while James didn't...

Now let's talk about statistics

Jordan
PPG: 30.1
APG: 6.2
RPG: 5.3

James
PPG: 27.7
APG: 7.0
RPG: 7.1

So, obviously Jordan is a better scorer, while James is a better All-Arounder... Sounds equal to me...

- Jordan has 14 All-Star appearances, James has already 7. I think that James will play (if he stays healthy - I wish for it) for about 10 more years. Won't he be 7 more times an All-Star? I definitely think he will...

- Jordan has 5 MVPs... James has only 2... He has been an MVP candidate with Miami's 2nd seed in the East. Miami will keep improving. It's a matter of time Miami finishes first in Regular Season. Multiple times. So expect Wade with a couple of MVPs in 7 years from now and James with another 3.

- Jordan has 6 NBA Titles. James has nothing. However, Jordan won his first NBA Title in 1991 when he was 28 years old...














JAMES IS ONLY 26!!!

Last edited by Ricky Davis at 8/22/2011 7:42:02 AM

quite optimistic your calculations Bulls and the Knicks are franchises who have more development potential then the Bulls, and in West there are still the Lakers and the Thunder(imho the team i expect most over the next 5-6 years) who could beat Miamis as. Which makes your title and MVP wishes quite difficult.

Jordan make the step from a player who played a lot through his athletic to a finesse player, leBron have this step ahead of his.

Also LeBron temanmate Wade is in the mix for the MVP title, which makes it harder for both and hey to be the best player of all time you should be easily the best in your team right? Pippen was a very great player(often in the top 3-5 of all time SF), but nobody said Jordan was number two.

And ok he played more allstar games, cause he played longer if his career take that long ;) But honestly, thats an popularity contest Ming got there without playing and if u could elect MJ i am quite sure he would be still participating there.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 8/22/2011 8:02:34 AM

LeBron, Larry Bird, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving are definitely over Pippen in the All-Time SF list and players like Worthy, Wilkins, Barry can ''steal'' Pippen's 6th spot...
In SGs, it's clear to me that Wade is number 3 behind MJ and probably Jerry West. Also, Miami is clearly D-Wade's team which makes it even harder for LeBron to claim the Number One title...

Big 3's first season was successful even if haters want to say the opposite. Miami was 2 games far from the championship. There is no opponent that can beat them in the East (4-1 the Celtics, 4-1 the Bulls).
By acquiring Dalembert and ex-superstars like Redd, Ford or T-Mac Miami automatically improves in terms of regural season wins. So, I'm not optimistic when I say the MVPs are close, quite realistic I would say...

LeBron won't have to make the step you mentioned because of his size. If he feels that his athletic ability is overshadowed by his age he will develop a post game using his size (which is not hampered by age)

there are also espn writer who put him behind bird, erving and before Bron ;)

And i wouuldn't put Wade on 3 or even 2, he is not even the best active SG in my eyes at least in the all time category(and still you could argue that it is still his team, and not Brons).

1. Johrden
2. Bryant
3. West
4. gervin
5.havlicek(is more Sg to me)

then comes a bunch of dudes on Wades level:
Drexler, Miller, Maravich, Sam Jones, Dumars

Last edited by CrazyEye at 8/22/2011 8:39:51 AM

LeBron, Larry Bird, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving are definitely over Pippen in the All-Time SF list and players like Worthy, Wilkins, Barry can ''steal'' Pippen's 6th spot...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-8024394 Pippen #5 Lebron is included on #2, so maybe only durant is missing to put him out of the top 5.

unluckily i don't find it from espn, but there was an 5 on 5 discussion where he was mentioned from an insane expert as number besides votes for Bird, james and baylor.

In SGs, it's clear to me that Wade is number 3 behind MJ and probably Jerry West. Also, Miami is clearly D-Wade's team which makes it even harder for LeBron to claim the Number One title...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-Greates... - he could catch up a bit, but here he is under additional votes. Weird that you could find votes for PF; C and PG there but no SF ;)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7805030 without a mention ;)

I choosed Yahoo and ESPN, as the most famous sources at least for me. Maybe i am missing some popular sources for it.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 8/22/2011 9:01:15 AM

How are you guys listing all-time greats and the Big O doesn't even get a cameo? I mean, Oscar Robertson may actually have been the greatest player ever. Seriously. Before my time, but watch some of his highlights (whatever you can find of them). He did everything that players of his era didn't. And I agree that Larry Bird was better than LeBron is. Could change one day.

To a couple of point above, you can't hold it against MJ for going to college. If anything, that probably gave him valuable experience that LeBron will never get and perhaps may keep him from ever catching the greatest ever label. Coach Dean Smith probably had a lot to do with MJ's development as a player, particularly with maturity. LeBron just doesn't have the maturity to get him to MJ's level. And don't tell me that LeBron made the Cavs better as a rookie than MJ did for the Bulls. That Cavs team was so terrible that they could have drafted Luke Ridnour and still gotten a whole lot better.

And if you want to look at stats head-to-head, you left out a few. Here are some averages per game over their careers, granted LeBron isn't done yet. (His averages might still decline...)

FT%:
MJ - 83.5%
LJ - 74.4%

FG%:
MJ - 49.7%!!!
LJ - 47.9%

Steals per 36 minutes:
MJ - 2.2
LJ - 1.5

Turnovers per 36 minutes:
MJ - 2.6
LJ - 3.0

PER:
MJ - 27.9
LJ - 26.9

Playoffs PPG:
MJ - 33.4!!!
LJ - 28.0

Can't compare them until James' career is over however I definitely think that THE KING will surpass MJ.
Let's talk...

- LeBron had no NCAA experience... Jordan had spent 3 years with -in my opinion- the best college in the US. That's definitely a bonus fo James...

- While a rookie, James made an instant impact in the Cavs, improving them by 18 wins. Jordan also improved Bulls but by only 10 wins... Second bonus for James

- To be fair, Jordan selected to start the Eastern Conference Allstar team while a rookie, while James didn't...

Now let's talk about statistics

Jordan
PPG: 30.1
APG: 6.2
RPG: 5.3

James
PPG: 27.7
APG: 7.0
RPG: 7.1

So, obviously Jordan is a better scorer, while James is a better All-Arounder... Sounds equal to me...

- Jordan has 14 All-Star appearances, James has already 7. I think that James will play (if he stays healthy - I wish for it) for about 10 more years. Won't he be 7 more times an All-Star? I definitely think he will...

- Jordan has 5 MVPs... James has only 2... He has been an MVP candidate with Miami's 2nd seed in the East. Miami will keep improving. It's a matter of time Miami finishes first in Regular Season. Multiple times. So expect Wade with a couple of MVPs in 7 years from now and James with another 3.

- Jordan has 6 NBA Titles. James has nothing. However, Jordan won his first NBA Title in 1991 when he was 28 years old...


JAMES IS ONLY 26!!!

Magic won a championship in his rookie year, Bird won one the next year...so in comparison, Jordan took a long time to get his first ring. Give LeChoke time...

Well, let the comparison (re)begin. After six years, neither of them had championships.

In six playoff appearances, LeChoke(I think this one is going to stick around for a while) averages 43.6 MPG, 7.0 APG, 46% FG, 74% FT, 713-956 FT, and 28.0 PPG

In the first six playoff appearances, Michael averages 42.9 MPG("roughly" the same), 48.55 % FG, 6.3 APG, 85.01% (I believe this is significantly higher),519-623 FT, 36.08 PPG!.

Clearly, Jordan is a better scorer and not only because of the obvious 36 PPG, but also because LeChoke's average is lying a little bit, because he gets a whistle whenever someone give him small push, shove, ugly look, whatever... and his real ppg is about 23-24, which, needless to say is not that impressive, plus most of his FG were layups or dunks, not jumpshots, so FG% should really go down with 2 or 3% at least. All this being said, you should already be wandering if this thread should really exist.
Plus, Michael played in the times when "anything goes" was at its best. So, he had to counter all sorts of pushes, shoves, aggressive picks, trash talk, etc.

And for the conclusion, Michael never went "at war" with the media, and never paid too much attention to it. And in that department, LeChokey made the biggest mistake of his carrer

Times do not compare, that's just the way it is. Michael Jordan was shoved each play, LeChoke is always being protected by the refs, and so is Dwayne Wade

Look at how James acts

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xami-TnKb_Q)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faT_1UEjtH4)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_jsyxJVAXs) quality is poor
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMZ-n4KNkkg
[link=http:...)]
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtgwSh2Fr6Q&feature=re...)

How can you say that this guy is a great player? HOW?


This is the best one yet.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6iibPJb-yo&feature=re...)

Last edited by Boston Celts at 8/23/2011 3:47:06 AM