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I agree with the idea of one table of all 14 teams and one division.
What would finals look like? A bracket of the top 4 where one plays 4 and 2
Plays 3? Or expand it further?

Wagner has been working on this. Perhaps he'll share here for all to see what he has arrived at 🙂

Well, I have to admit that I have indeed done lots of thinking in terms of best league systems and some basic rules, and compared different options, created pros and cons-lists, etc.

MrJ also wrote excellent drafts about some basic rules, and maybe we could still have some discussion on some aspects about it in the very near future.

But now to the league system(s) that I've been thinking about. I was thinking that I'd present you my current favorite of all league systems and see if you guys would approve that.

So before the basic assumptions/rules that you'll find listed below, as a reminderr we have 14 participating teams so I wanted to keep that in mind at all times, so that regular season (a.k.a. round robin) would remain as interesting and as meaningful as possible for all teams (so it wouldn't be playing just for honor at the end of the season), as long as possible as we approach the end of regular season.

Basic league system information/notes:

In all propositions that I've compared during these last months (please note, that here I will present you only my current favorite system though) in regular season all teams face each other once on a neutral court (so there are 13 matches per team in regular season, a.k.a. round robin). Matches are played at a pace 1 match per week.
(Discussion on whether match needs to take place on a given day of week, or even at exact given time, or within a certaint timeframe only, still needs to be discussed further, but MrJ and some others presented some good discussion/points on this matter earlier).

All playoff games are decided in single elimination format, including bronze and gold medal match: you lose, you're out.

In playoffs, the team with a higher regular season record will get the home advantage for the playoff match (as a reward from better regular season success). Depending on playoff format (how many games we have to get played in remaining 2 weeks of the BB season), there will be 1-2 playoff matches on each of these seasons last 2 playoff weeks (second playoff week action is guaranteed of course only for teams proceeding to semifinals, as then they'll be guaranteed either a bronze or gold medal match).

As for teams reaching postseason play (playoffs), we need to remember that we have 14 teams, of which I think it'd be optimal to include a fair (or rather large) amount to keep things interesting for most teams for the maximum length of regular season.

In terms of playoffs, as I mentioned before in forum, I'd like to introduce bronze medal matches as well to this homegrown league! Like you who follow basketball IRL know, bronze match does take place in Olympics and basketball World and European championships at least (and for instance in Finnish basketball league, Korisliiga too), so I´d find it a very welcome addition! This would also enable us to make a proper all time medal table of the league, that we could update after each season.


To be continued...

I agree with the idea of one table of all 14 teams and one division.
What would finals look like? A bracket of the top 4 where one plays 4 and 2
Plays 3? Or expand it further?

Wagner has been working on this. Perhaps he'll share here for all to see what he has arrived at 🙂

Continues....


All my league/playoff system propositions (again, of which I present you my current favorite in the next message due to character limitations) assume that:

- league is being played with one league table only (14 teams in the same league table), so in other words league is NOT divided to two groups (as traditionally in BB league there are two groups - not in our league, for instance due to aforementioned problems associated with it).

- no fixed playoff table is made, but instead re-seeding is made after each round of playoffs so best remaining team faces worst remaining team.
(We can discuss the possibility of using fixed playoff tables on later seasons if managers are up to it, maybe it could be interesting for some coming seasons, and this is used in NCAA basketball playoffs for example. But for now it would be easiest and most logical to use re-seeding).
In a fixed table system (like what´s used in most tennis tournaments AFAIK for instance) you could benefit big time if a favorite team is dropped out of competition earlier than expected if they're on your side of playoff table - in this suggestion of mine though (for this first season at least) re-seeding will take place after each round of playoffs and best remaining team always faces the worst remaining team, and so on.

- better regular season win-loss record awards team home advantage for the match, so that makes regular season success important - every gained position in regular season could give you needed edge in playoffs which makes nearly all regular season games count as home advantage could be a decisive edge that your team needs

- if teams have same win-loss record after regular season, then instead of using ranking based on scoring differential, maybe we could rank them based on the result of the match when they faced each other during the regular season? In one sense, they were the better team of those two by winning that match. (However, this isn't a dealbreaker kind of thing/rule for me but rather a suggestion, and this AFAIK is used for instance in Finnish basketball and I like the logic of it).

Due to these 4000 character limitations, I reveal my favorite league and playoff system in the next message.


To be continued...

Wagner has been working on this. Perhaps he'll share here for all to see what he has arrived at 🙂

So finally, here's my favorite proposition as a league system for us 14 teams:

- similar kind of system/model that's used in Finnish ice hockey league, "Liiga" (in which 16 teams total play within one league table)

- 4 best teams after regular season are given a secured place on playoffs, kind of receive a bye to the playoffs instead of going through the "pre-playoffs" stage. (We can call first phase of playoffs which includes teams ranked 5th to 12th a "pre-playoffs", or play-in games as it's kind of done in NCAA basketball, or call them actual playoffs and just give 4 best of regular season a free bye for the second round of playoffs where 8 teams remain, but playoff model stays the same and in that sense this is just semantics).

- teams in regular season table at ranks from 5th to 12th (8 teams) play so called "pre-playoffs"

Pros:
- 12 out of 14 teams will get to the playoffs (85,7%)

- this kind of plan includes more involvement in terms of teams getting to participate to playoffs, and will keep things interesting (and matches more meaningful) till late in the regular season

- while enabling most teams participate in post season play, having "pre-playoffs" would somewhat help avoid those "rank 1 vs. rank 16", all too familliar blowout matches from NCAA March Madness playoff tournament, and to reach to playoffs from league table positions, say 11 or 12th (to face a very strong team the next round), you'd at least have to put up a good fight and show your teams capabilities in full to beat first leagues' number 6 or 5 ranked teams, respectively, before you're "allowed" to take a shot with such a poor regular season record against one of the best of the league

- this 12 teams involved for postseason play would work well for a bigger league as well if we get expansion teams for the next season: easily at least to 16 teams league (75% of teams to playoffs)

- while it would't work as is without editing team numbers, if we decide to make BBHG a two league tier series in the future, it'd be possible to adjust this kind of system to lower number of teams too (see "Cons")

- if we want to create different level league tiers (Premier league and 1st Division) for the forthcoming seasons, this system would allow also teams ranked from 8th to 12th a chance to avoid relegation from the Premier (top) league for the next season, as maybe we could agree that if you´re able to clinch a spot in the playoffs (win your single-elimination pre-playoff game for playoffs) you will be granted a place in top league next season (8 teams would have a guaranteed place for next season in this example)

Cons:
- should we decide to make 2 different level league tiers from starting of season 2, 3, 4 etc., this system wouldn't work completely as is
(of course condensed form of it could be used if edited, such as 2 secured playoff places and teams with league positions from 3rd to 6th would play a single elimination match, "a pre-playoff", to decide who reaches playoffs. But then 7th in the table would be relegated, and as possibly 1 relegation spot is not enough for the league if and when we make new rule for the league that participating teams have to start at the lowest level league tier, we would probably have to adjust it so that the teams who lost their "pre-playoff" match will play against each other and a loser of that match would be ranked 6th after the season and would have to play a single elimination match against 2nd ranked team in Division 1 to decide which one of those team plays in top league for the next season)

- as for someone who love stats, I must mention that using this kind of playoff system team all time statistics are not directly comparable with a more traditional system without "pre-playoffs", but I can live with that (and create a separate stat line for that;)

-At the conclusion of the 'regular' season, the top 4 teams have earned the right to play in the 'Gold' and 'Bronze' matches.
-The Top 4 teams, unlike the regular season, have Home Court Advantage (HCA) depending on their finishing place.

Thank you also for your considerable effort. :)

I actually meant, that (if we keep on talking about "pre-playoffs"/play-in games which mean the same thing for this purpose) top 4 teams secure place for playoffs, and opponents for those top 4 teams are decided in this "pre-playoff" round. For instance team ranked 5 plays home against team ranked 12, team rank 6 plays team 11, and so on, and winners of these matches (8 teams play pre-playoff games, so there will be 4 pre-playoff matches played with single elimination format as usual) will face best 4 or regular season, so there will be normal quarterfinal stage (of 8 participating teams, as it's quarterfinal after all) after the pre-playoff stage.

So I also meant that top four or regular season are guaranteed a place in playoffs, nothing else (not automatic bronze or gold medal match - they have to win their first quarterfinal, and if they win it they are in the semis and then, and only then they of course have secured a medal game).
In terms of home court advantage, in playoffs I think better team (team with better regular season record; if record was tied, perhaps the one who has won the regular season meeting between those two teams this same season) should always receive home court advantage.
Especially with pre-playoff stage (and I think mostly also later on in the playoffs), as for example regular season 5th and 12th will play pre-playoff game against each other (in which regular season 12th has a shot to send league 5th to "a summer holiday" in one match even though they've had a lot worse regular season than regular season 5th!), I think it is necessary to award better regular season record even somehow (even though team ranked 5th is of course likely somewhat big favorite to win the match to begin with, but still). I don't know if bronze and final matches should be played on neutral court (what do you guys think?), but I think at least in all other playoff matches (including semis) should award home court advantage to a better regular season record.

-How this system would work for 2 divisions in future seasons is still to be determined.

Yes, we can discuss about it. But in short, this system is somewhat flexible though, and if in a league of 7 or 8 participants only 2 best of regular season would receive guaranteed playoff place (and teams ranked from 3rd to 6th would play pre-playoff matches to decide which teams would face those teams ranked 1 and 2 in semis), then 6 of 7 (or 6 of 8, if there are 8 teams in top league) would get to participate to postseason play.
Also, like I mentioned earlier, it is possible to use pre-playoff matches as a form of league relegation simultaneously ((if we have 8 teams ranked 5th to 12th participating to pre-playoffs, we could agree that winners will secure a place in playoffs (in 8 team quarterfinals), and rest, the losers of pre-playoffs will drop to the Division 1 for the next season.
In the forthcoming seasons (pre-playoffs for teams 3th to 6th) I presented earlier a functioning model (in message 324689.242 , "Cons")

A quick question, Wagner. Does the winner or loser of the 'Pre-Season' mean anything? Or is it just for maximum participation?

Umm.. do you mean these "pre-playoff"-matches for teams ranked 5th-12th in the league table?
If so, from those 4 matches we would find opposition from regular season 4 best teams (so that worst ranked pre-playoff match winner would face team with best regular season record, second worst faces second best, etc. like most often in real world; in my previous messages I called that "re-seeding", where after each round teams are re-arranged so that worst always faces best, and so on.

Okay, let me try again...


Summary:
-14 teams play in one League.
-The League starts at the beginning of Season 68.
-The League plays a 'Round Robin' for regular season (every team plays every other team in a random draw).
-During the PLAYOFFS (Pre-Playoff and Playoffs)...all playoff games are elimination games = You lose, you're out.
-At the conclusion of the 'regular' season, the top 4 teams have earned the right to skip the first round of pre-playoffs and go straight into the Quarter Finals (QF).
-Those teams who, at the end of the regular season, are ranked 5th - 12th, participate in 'Pre-Playoffs' (PPO) to ensure maximum participation.
-The winners of the PPO (Teams 5-12) then, together with the Top 4, compete in the QF.
-All teams re-seeded at this point.
-The winners of the QF go into the Semi Finals (SF)
-Reseeding again at this point.

-These final 2 games, like all the finals' games, have Home Court Advantage (HCA) applied to the higher ranked team.
-These 2 games, rather than be Semi-Final games, are 'Gold' and 'Bronze' medal games with 1v2 and 3v4 respectively.

-In the event that two teams meet with the same Win/Loss record, the winner of their previous game during the regular season will be used to determine HCA.

PLAYOFFS SIMPLIFIED:

Key:
Pre-Playoff (PPO)
Quarter Final (QF)



PPO: 5v12, 6v11, 7v10, 8v10 (Top4 teams exempt from this round)

***reseeding of teams still in the competition prior to QF***

QF: 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5

***reseeding of teams still in the competition prior to Gold & Bronze Games***

Gold & Bronze Games: 1v2, and 3v4 (see below)

'Gold' medal Game: 1v2

'Bronze' medal Game: 3v4



EDIT: some errors
Final edit done.

Last edited by MrJ at 1/13/2025 9:56:11 PM

Okay, let me try again...


Summary:
[...]
PPO: 5v12, 6v11, 7v10, 8v10 (Top4 teams exempt from this round)

***reseeding of teams still in the competition***

QF: 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5

***reseeding of teams still in the competition***

SF: 1v4, 2v3

F: Winner of 1v4 versus Winner of 2v3.

Starting to look good... :) Only three small things that I'd suggest (before heading to bed, it's later than 5AM in here), so:

- first just a small correction (8v9) at PPO stage, and
- then addition of bronze medal match (that I suggested in my previous message) before or simultaneously with the final match. Including a bronze medal match would allow more teams to reach "measurable" success, and allow us to keep a proper record of all time medal winners of homegrown league (and not winners of league-record only) which I'd find very interesting!
- also it's just about wording and as long as we have one meeting against same team per season it doesn't matter, but in "In the event that two teams meet with the same Win/Loss record, the winner of their previous game duirng the regualr season will be used to determine HCA." I'd change it to reflect that the winner of the regular season series (because likely 2 matches will be played against same opposition if there will be 2 different level league tiers, Premier League and Division for instance, in the future) will receive HCA - if wins are 1-1, then scoring difference in those two matches, if still tied scoring difference of the season, and if still tied after these then we could decide which is the next decisive factor (it's not the most urgent thing here, is it :)

Okay. Hopefully this is it [fingers crossed]

Summary:
-14 teams play in one League.
-The League starts at the beginning of Season 68.
-The League plays a 'Round Robin' for regular season (every team plays every other team in a random draw).
-During the PLAYOFFS (Pre-Playoff and Playoffs)...all playoff games are elimination games = You lose, you're out.
-At the conclusion of the 'regular' season, the top 4 teams have earned the right to skip the first round of pre-playoffs and go straight into the Quarter Finals (QF).
-Those teams who, at the end of the regular season, are ranked 5th - 12th, participate in 'Pre-Playoffs' (PPO) to ensure maximum participation.
-The winners of the PPO (Teams 5-12) then, together with the Top 4, compete in the QF.
-All teams re-seeded at this point.
-The winners of the QF go into the Semi Finals (SF)
-Reseeding again at this point.
-The winners of these SF games will then go into a 'Gold' medal game.
-The losers of these SF games will go into a 'Bronze' medal game.

-Home Court Advantage (HCA) applies to all Playoff games.
-In the event that two teams meet with the same Win/Loss record, the winner of their previous game(s) against each other during the regular season will be used to determine HCA. IF this is also tied, then point differential will be used.

PLAYOFFS SIMPLIFIED:

Key:
Pre-Playoff (PPO)
Quarter Final (QF)
Semi-Final (SF)


PPO: 5v12, 6v11, 7v10, 8v9 (Top4 teams exempt from this round)

***reseeding of teams still in the competition prior to QF*** then...

QF: 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5

***reseeding of teams still in the competition prior to SF*** then...

SF: 1v4, 2v3

Gold & Bronze Games: 1v2, and 3v4 (see below)

'Gold' medal Game: Winner of 1v2 and 3v4 (from SF)

'Bronze' medal Game: Losers of 1v2 and 3v4 (from SF)


How's that, Wagner?

Last edited by MrJ at 1/13/2025 10:21:15 PM

This is a message/reminder to all 14 teams confirmed to play in the upcoming HG League...

...could you please aim to have saved a minimum of 13 PickUp (PU) tokens for the start of Season 68 please.

If this can be achieved by all 14 teams, then the regular season PU games can be organised right from the beginning of the season (ALL 13 weeks worth!)

Thank you.

Thank you all for effort.

I have some points left, can use for my every game.

Do we care about calendar- I mean playoffs will be in season 69?
Or maybe we should do everything in season 68?
Maybe no playoffs- just idea but not that clever